~ NY State Supreme Court Justice Edward J. Greenfield, 1995

“Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

~ Jesus of Nazareth

“Tell a devout Christian that his wife is cheating on him, or that frozen yogurt can make a man invisible, and he is likely to require as much evidence as any one else, and to be persuaded only to the extent that you give it. Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept its every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence whatsoever.”

It is the “means” which is the ultimate question about the mystery of the cross is conveyed. Paul writes further to the Corinthians, “For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING TO SAVE them that believe.” (1 Cor 1:21) By Biblical definition, to preach is to “proclaim good news”. Salvation is obtained, in a practical sense, through acting on the message that is heard (Rom 10:13-15).

While this may seem a little unfair for natives in far away lands, Paul points out that creation itself testifies of its creator (Rom 1:20). Somehow Abraham figured it out without a Bible, as did Abel, Seth, Job, and many more. Somehow they figured out the need of a substitutionary sacrifice, and even perceived, in part at least, the ultimate sacrifice that the animal was to represent.

So it is the actual event of preaching that leads to hearing, to believing, to calling, and to salvation, whether by words, or circumstances sent from God to unveil the Gospel.

There is a process of humbling that is required to see this as anything but the foolish ranting of a madman. It has nothing to do with it being presented by a academic or a simpleton, it is the actual message that is foolish. It is as if God is refusing us the right to cleverness and self-sufficiency. It is His salvation, and it is only available to those He “gives” it to.

The problem is, we refuse anything that we cannot comprehend. Could this be because it shames us? If we don’t understand this, then what else is there that we don’t know? Better to invent an explanation that allows us to ignore that which is unseen.

Reread your comments dissenter, and see the confirmation of the fact that the message of the Cross is foolishness to those that are perishing. I don’t think you’re naïve enough to think that the Bible says that you are bound for heaven, whether you agree with its reasons or not. The Bible says that you are perishing, and because of this will think that the Gospel is foolishness. And low and behold, its right, that is exactly what you think.

For you, right now, this foolish message has been contained within statements made on this web page. God has sent people to you, who would seek to persuade, out of the knowledge of the terror of the Lord, and having experienced His perfect love that casts out all fear. In spite of God going to such lengths, you will not be satisfied with anything less than God stepping into visibility and telling you Himself.

Compare this with the Roman Centurion who told Jesus that it was not required that he came to his own house to heal his ailing servant, but that merely saying the word would be sufficient. Consider also the fact that Christ ignored his executors’ promise to believer in him on the condition of coming down from the cross.

The other day, an Atheist asked me if the Bible tells us about everything, and I answered, “It tells us as much as we need to know.” It will leave you with more questions than answers, but it will answer the questions that need asking, in a way that is impossible for the mortal mind.

Anyway, here ends my contribution to this discussion. It is ironic that my devotional reading has just arrived again at 1 Corinthians. Our discussion has done much to put flesh onto Paul’s words. Essentially our two sides here are you on one side saying, “Prove God to me” and me conveying a message from God, “Prove yourself to Me.”

This scenario reminds me of a story of the scientist who decided to have a competition with God to genetically make a better human. He started off by saying, “First, I’ll take some amino acids, and…” God interrupted and said, “Hey, get your own amino acids.”

Boiled down, I think you’re saying that this mystery can only be understood, even partially, if one is convicted by the Holy Spirit. God must lead people to Himself via whatever means you have described.

But what other meaning is there apart from that provided by our minds through emotion and reasoning? What other faculties, apart from reasoning, feeling and the physical senses, do we have?

You posit a “spiritual faculty” which you cannot even partially describe, which operates in an unknown way to interact with an unknown spiritual world. It can’t be measured or shown to have physical correlates like feelings and reasoning (brain activity can be measured and correlated with feelings and thinking, what physical correlate is there for “spiritual activity”?).

By the way, the accusation of arrogance was directed at you, personally for considering it beneath you to have to learn another culture to fully comprehend the Gospel, not at society.

And I notice that you tend to zero in on part of a statement, ignoring the rest. Therefore you miss the point of what I’m saying.

Returning to the original topic of shmatt’s post, I work with an evangelistic team that utilises the principles that are taught by the Way of the Master organisation. We set out to help people see their sinfulness by comparing their lives with the Ten Commandments.

Shmatt and I disagree on the validity of such an approach, and have spoken often about such. Part of his argument against WoTM, is that people like yourself with view this as a mere technique to “win your soul”, and would fail to show that we care for you as a person. I would say that this is done in the spirit of “laying one’s cards on the table”. Any Christian would agree that there is an expectation that a Christian would forsake sin, and we simply present that knowledge before sharing the Gospel (which is foolishness to those who are perishing) so that the hearer can count the cost, rather than be disillusioned after “giving Christianity a go”. Call it disclosure.

Anyway, my reason for pointing this out is this; When we ask people whether they lie or not, the most common answer is, “Of course. Everyone lies.” This demonstrates that not only do they lie, but they see nothing wrong with it. Fact is, most of us redefine our morality so as to have it justify our conduct. If I had a dollar for everyone that I had spoken to who were dead set against adultery, only to minimise it after they cheated on their spouse, I’d be wealthy.

Notice that you zero in on “lazy, work-avoiding dole-bludgers” when that was only one of three examples of Western Societies’ (Australia in particular) “tendency to live off the state”, and that only one of three maladies that I presented.

My comments about “making light of pedophilia” come from the fact that I work in a tool store, serving blue collar workers, all day. Just today I had a customer think it would be funny to ask for the “child porn” department, when he rang. He would argue that was only joking when he was making his suggestive comments about having sex with children, and my colleagues would have laughed at him, telling me that I need to lighten up a little. As a sales rep, prior to this job, I had people make sport of trying to trick me into looking at porn on their computers, once they found out I was a Christian, implying that there is something wrong with me for walking away when it comes on.

Isaiah put it well when he wrote:
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! Therefore as the fire devours the stubble, and the flame consumes the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.”

The tragedy of our society is that although it is rotten to the core, it points to its achievements in an attempt to validate its moral failures. And our children watch and take up the baton to usher in greater darkness, generation after generation. Only the “mystery of the Cross” can hope to rectify such an error.

The message is independent of whatever medium God has supposedly chosen to communicate it. Isn’t this logical? Choice of medium may influence who and how many people listen, but it does not change the truth-value of the message. I therefore see the “using the foolish to confound the wise” as irrelevant.

As to cultural arrogance, I notice you tend to make generalisations. I don’t see our Australian culture being dominated by lazy, work-avoiding dole-bludgers.

Doesn’t it all sound contrived, artifical and, in the end, meaningless? Rather, you give it emotional meaning through ritual, religious/habitual practices of various kinds.”

I must say that I am fascinated by your continual insistence on the importance of “emotional meaning”. Faith, as love, is not a feeling, but a series of choices. I am persuaded of God’s reality, not because of any feelings felt, but because He has shed His love abroad in my heart. My very nature has changed, and continues to conform itself into Christ’s image. Even this isn’t the basis of my belief. The basis is merely that I “know”, just as I know I am alive. I knew that I was alive long before I was aware of the existence of a pulse, and was conscious of my breathing. I simply “was”, and still “am”.

Before you say it; of course that sounds crazy, after all “The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.” Have you ever noticed that there is a bias in the kind of person who presents information in attempting to prove the existence of God? They are all Theists.

In spite of this, I like the way that you put the above quoted statement. It describes the plan of God to offer salvation, quite well, albeit from an outside perspective. Considering that “contrived” means “Obviously planned or calculated; not spontaneous or natural; labored: a novel with a contrived ending” then: Yes. It does “sound contrived”. In fact not only does it “sound” contrived, but it “is” contrived.

God is described as knowing the end from the beginning. Christ is described as the “Lamb that was slain, before the foundation of the world.” Of believers, it is said that “he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he has made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he has abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he has purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.”

Is it artificial? Not in any sense of the word. Meaningless? Of course not. God created a people, with the plan that they would later be regenerated by His Spirit. The fall in the garden was inevitable, of course. Gos placed in us the potential to desire. Desire left unchecked breeds lust. Lust desires what it either cannot and/or should not have. However, the flip side is that desire has potential of producing good. Without desire, we would be relegated to automatons, void of passion. Without passion, there can be no love.

The point of the whole scenario, is that God always intended that we be in relationship with His. That we “walk with God” as Enoch did. That our lives would be lived in constant communion with Him. The choice was put before mankind to follow God, or to make a choice that would lead to them being capable, and therefore responsible for making their own choices. It is similar logic to the child who receives assistance from his parent to make a model aeroplane. Half way through the child gains an overconfidence and informs his parent that he no longer needs assistance. However, because the lack of adequate learning and co-ordination, the child ruins the model. The parent stands idly by, watching the catastrophe, knowing that a valuable lesson is being learned. The plane may or may not be salvageable, but the child’s confidence is. He has just learned that, with a little help, a seeming tragedy can be overcome.

God lets us go about our lives, curbing us in. However, as we muck things up, more and more, the “plane” of our life becomes more and more marred. The thing is, God is also able to restore the potential of the person whose life has been marred by sin. He works all things together for good, in Christ Jesus, to the point that there is no point regretting our failure, for its contrast is what brought us to the point of restored relationship with Him.

Jesus said that he came to “Seek and to save, that which is lost”. It has been implied that “being lost” is what qualifies one to be “found” by Christ. This “lostness” is as an amnesia victim is lost within himself, unaware that he is even missing. It is different to a child being lost in a shopping center, for example, because the child will at least call out for help, while the amnesia victim drifts though life, only aware that there is something that he can’t remember. Meanwhile wife and children are potentially separated from there husband/father, in spite of him being in their presence.

Bearing this is mind, consider the words of the famous hymn:
“Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost but now I’m found
Was blind but now I see

‘Twas grace that taught my heart to fear
And grace that fear relieved
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed”

The grace was working before I realised it. It showed me my sin, before I asked for it. It showed me my wretchedness before I asked for it. It showed me mercy, the moment I asked for it, out of the realisation of my wretchedness. This grace was and is truly amazing.

I feel the same way.

http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/01/22/point-to-the-planet-shaker/#comment-287

Consider the logic behind these statements. It is a logic that validates our culture, and logic, over another. Doesn’t that seem arrogant to you? Compare our culture, with its apparent inability to keep its word (displayed by divorce and bankruptcy rates), it’s tendency to live off of the state where it can get away with it(whether through Centrelink, Family Allowance, Medicare, etc), and where standards of morality is slipping away to the point where it is commonly acceptable to make light of issues such as pedophilia, mental illness, racism and adultery.

Now compare this with a culture where social welfare was built into the daily life, option to willingly sell oneself into slavery, as a means of clearing debts, but never permanently and covenants were practiced (in fact promises still carry far more weight in middle eastern countries). In essence, our culture is one of avoiding responsibility, where Hebrew culture was, and to some degree, still is, one where obligations were expected to be met, unless released from.

Israel’s culture, everything from its religion, customs and traditions, was established by God, through Moses. It didn’t evolve as a matter of convenience, as other nations, but was decreed by God. In effect, Hebrew culture is His culture. They were chosen, by Him, and then given a very short leash, with severe consequences for disobedience. They were as the “royal heir to the throne” who is raised with greater strictness than his siblings, because of the weight of the world on his shoulders. Israel means, “Prince of God”.

God is within His prerogative to select a culture through which to display His nature through. To demonstrate His justice and mercy to. To show the world the mere fact that He is one who chooses and consecrates based on His will, and not ours.

He has identified Himself as one who chooses the “foolish (could be translated “ludicrous” or “insane”) things of this world to confound the wise.” Rather than choosing the mighty Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome He chose the lowly Israel. The basest of humanity. The stench to our nostrils. The offensively arrogant, and defiant, and effectively says, “You must come to Me through them. I love them, and so, if you love Me, then you would love them too.”