Comments on: Was this the "cost" of discipleship that Jesus meant? http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/ Adventures in life and church planting. Sat, 19 May 2012 14:33:07 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: David http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-832 David Tue, 28 Aug 2007 11:23:22 +0000 http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-832 Debate? I thought this was a conversation. Anyway, effort or no effort? Debate? I thought this was a conversation.

Anyway, effort or no effort?

]]> By: shmatt http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-827 shmatt Mon, 27 Aug 2007 11:55:41 +0000 http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-827 David, you seem to be baiting me into a debate that I'm not interested in having. David, you seem to be baiting me into a debate that I’m not interested in having.

]]> By: David http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-825 David Mon, 27 Aug 2007 08:13:47 +0000 http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-825 Are you suggesting no effort is required of the Christian in developing these "fruits of the spirit"? Don't you attempt to determine the will of God, and don't you attempt to implement your Christian beliefs in practice? Surely these are difficult challenges requiring will-power and the right frame of mind on your part. A how-to guide would be very useful. The "following their own desires" also suggests your own effort is required - at least in not giving into temptation. Would it be more reasonable to say that it is a joint-effort - you and God operating as a team? If so, then it is not entirely God's work that changes your life. Sure, the abstract, accounting wipe-the-slate clean is all up to God, but when it comes to improvements in your own life, this does require personal exertion. Are you suggesting no effort is required of the Christian in developing these “fruits of the spirit”? Don’t you attempt to determine the will of God, and don’t you attempt to implement your Christian beliefs in practice? Surely these are difficult challenges requiring will-power and the right frame of mind on your part. A how-to guide would be very useful.

The “following their own desires” also suggests your own effort is required - at least in not giving into temptation.

Would it be more reasonable to say that it is a joint-effort - you and God operating as a team? If so, then it is not entirely God’s work that changes your life. Sure, the abstract, accounting wipe-the-slate clean is all up to God, but when it comes to improvements in your own life, this does require personal exertion.

]]> By: shmatt http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-824 shmatt Mon, 27 Aug 2007 04:24:27 +0000 http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-824 That's because it's not a how-to for christians. The process of exhibiting "fruit" (as it is called) is a work of God, and not of our own efforts. And without this work of God, these traits would be of themselves no value - they would be like trying to clean yourself with a cloth that has been dipped in used motor oil (because all of our own efforts are filled with selfish motivation). All I can say is this - biblicly speaking, if someone who calls themsleves a Christian is not at least developing these traits, then it is a symptom of them following their own desires and not Jesus. That’s because it’s not a how-to for christians. The process of exhibiting “fruit” (as it is called) is a work of God, and not of our own efforts. And without this work of God, these traits would be of themselves no value - they would be like trying to clean yourself with a cloth that has been dipped in used motor oil (because all of our own efforts are filled with selfish motivation).

All I can say is this - biblicly speaking, if someone who calls themsleves a Christian is not at least developing these traits, then it is a symptom of them following their own desires and not Jesus.

]]> By: David http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-823 David Mon, 27 Aug 2007 03:37:43 +0000 http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-823 Those same traits can, according to Buddhism, be cultivated through other practices. No belief in God is required. I'm not advocating Buddhism, but from observation Christians seem to struggle more with these characteristics, compared to many Buddhist people I have met. Maybe that is because their means of cultivation is more detailed in Buddhist tradition, wherease in the Bible the process is far more vague - something to do with the work of the Holy Spirit, but so ill-defined. Those same traits can, according to Buddhism, be cultivated through other practices. No belief in God is required.

I’m not advocating Buddhism, but from observation Christians seem to struggle more with these characteristics, compared to many Buddhist people I have met. Maybe that is because their means of cultivation is more detailed in Buddhist tradition, wherease in the Bible the process is far more vague - something to do with the work of the Holy Spirit, but so ill-defined.

]]> By: shmatt http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-821 shmatt Sun, 26 Aug 2007 12:54:56 +0000 http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-821 The results of following after God are character traits such as (as the Bible states) "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control". This is not simply about living within the law, it is about going beyond what is required of us to be 'good' citizens. I must state that these traits are the result of the work of God in our lives, and not a precursor to it. The results of following after God are character traits such as (as the Bible states) “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control”.

This is not simply about living within the law, it is about going beyond what is required of us to be ‘good’ citizens.

I must state that these traits are the result of the work of God in our lives, and not a precursor to it.

]]> By: David http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-818 David Sat, 25 Aug 2007 08:18:49 +0000 http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-818 There are Christians of good character out there? Really? How can Christians be any better than your average law-abiding citizen? There are Christians of good character out there? Really?

How can Christians be any better than your average law-abiding citizen?

]]> By: shmatt http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-798 shmatt Sat, 18 Aug 2007 09:20:05 +0000 http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-798 <p>David, perhaps you misunderstood. I had no objections to paying the amount we paid. It was well worth it. Events like this attract costs, which need to be paid. And there is value in coming together as the body of Christ - and I don't think that this is restricted to local churches or denominations.</p> <p>All I am suggesting is that perhaps we need to consider how much money is required, and how much goes towards our comfort or to pay the "super star" speakers at any of our conferences.</p> <p>Now, that is one thing - but I am not quite following you on your comments regarding accountability. What I hear you saying is that the effectiveness of our Christianity is measured by how many people we see saved and brought to maturity. Is this correct? If so, then I would have to disagree with you. I do not see this in the Bible, which I see as stating clearly that the fruit of our faith is quantifiable only in our character and obedience. We are called to be witnesses of the truth - Salvation belongs to God alone. </p> David, perhaps you misunderstood. I had no objections to paying the amount we paid. It was well worth it. Events like this attract costs, which need to be paid. And there is value in coming together as the body of Christ - and I don’t think that this is restricted to local churches or denominations.

All I am suggesting is that perhaps we need to consider how much money is required, and how much goes towards our comfort or to pay the “super star” speakers at any of our conferences.

Now, that is one thing - but I am not quite following you on your comments regarding accountability. What I hear you saying is that the effectiveness of our Christianity is measured by how many people we see saved and brought to maturity. Is this correct? If so, then I would have to disagree with you. I do not see this in the Bible, which I see as stating clearly that the fruit of our faith is quantifiable only in our character and obedience. We are called to be witnesses of the truth - Salvation belongs to God alone.

]]> By: David http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-793 David Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:34:11 +0000 http://shmatt.com/posts/2007/07/27/was-this-the-cost-of-discipleship-that-jesus-meant/#comment-793 Maybe you should look at it as an investment. How many disciples did you make as a result of the $350 spent? How many baptisms? And of those how many are still obeying the commands of Jesus? Lets put a stop to this airy fairy, non-accountable, she'll-be-right-mate approach. Get serious. Get accountable and start measuring. Remember, people are going to hell every minute of every day. Maybe you should look at it as an investment. How many disciples did you make as a result of the $350 spent? How many baptisms? And of those how many are still obeying the commands of Jesus?

Lets put a stop to this airy fairy, non-accountable, she’ll-be-right-mate approach. Get serious. Get accountable and start measuring.

Remember, people are going to hell every minute of every day.

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